Ah, uh, first hello, what's going on everyone, i think i'm coming at you loud and clear, just trying out a new little piece of software here, but today's particular video today's particular afternoon stream will be an exciting one because we will be talking with the man the Myth, the legend the mr dave lauer. If you don't know who dave lauer is, you should be acquainting with them, because he teaches the entire ape community a lot about what is going on. He will be joining us in about 5, 10. 15 minutes.

Something like that. He's an important guy, so he has to finish some other things up, but he will be joining us this afternoon to discuss two important things number one. On tuesday march 29th, both amc and gme were halted about five minutes into the trading day. They both spiked up.

Then they came down and we had limit down, halts we're going to be discussing. Was that manipulation were they legal? Was there anything sus going on? He has a full blog post written up about it. So if you want to, you could check that out right now. You can check it out later.

You can check it out, whatever is convenient for you, but it's in the description of the video. Not only do we have this full blog right up on it, but on top of it i have another resource for all of you about limit ups limit downs. How are they decided when are they decided? What's going on with them so check that out and above it you could also find his twitter and he's a very, very active uh, not only twitter, but also on reddit, and he has a lot a lot of things that and he's just sharing all that wealth For completely free and most importantly, you can check out what's going on with his platform called the terminal which um is going to really get rocking in the next couple weeks next couple months, but obviously i'll. Let him talk more about that, so i'm very very excited.

If you want, obviously, if you have particular questions on your mind about the craziness of the halts and we're also going to be talking about some of the insanity of the london metal exchange and some crazy, crazy, sus, well i'll call it for what it is straight Up that we're seeing that, basically, the exchange sided with the short seller and stop them from getting blown out of their position. That's the other major thing that we're going to be discussing because he just has really um unique. I guess insights, unique insights about what in the world is going on all right. So in the meantime, while we're waiting for him, let me see if i could switch this over to is this working bada bing bada, boom? Okay, this should be coming out too loud and clear um, so the s p 500 in the top left of your screen right here.

What i want to bring up to you about that is, we got the gap fill, so this was something that was posted on locals and if you were there like, this was a nice trade and it was an obvious capital and it's actually a continuation. So if you are playing the continuation, one thing i would look at is somewhere between 450 and 446. If you want like - and this is the game of scaling, you could scale out your profits. You could watch 450, which is a key level or you could watch this major level of technical support at 446 if you're playing with the spy um over here.

Okay, wait. I see some people talking about the quality 180. Hang on what video video, so it says i'm at 1080p 30fps. I wonder if we can make it, is it any better to view it like that? Does that come through a little bit more clearly for all of you, or maybe i should put myself over here.

Uh, i'm trying out this new thing on restream, honestly folks, it doesn't matter because the star of the show the bell of the ball, the guy who should have been invited to the oscars but was snubbed this year - we're gon na get him there next year. Mr lauer is with us. Let me just get it going: hey man, mr lauer, mr lauer. How are you today dave i'm good? How are you uh very, very excited for you to be able to come on because i mean, as you've seen you have full blog write-ups about this uh, the halt that we saw on the 29th.

So i think there's a lot of questions that i have. I went through your post, we discussed it a little bit yesterday, but i'm still seeing a little bit of confusion on reddit on twitter on youtube, and on top of that i saw what you were talking about today with the london metal exchange, and i was talking The audience a little bit before i mean that just seems like straight up illegal, like just straight up like in our face going on, and it sounds like they're gon na get away with it. It sounds actually like the vibe of how, when you ever do anything with your like phone you're, just like okay terms of service. I agree and, like you just move on with your life like no one reads it and it feels like that's kind of the exchange's excuse right now like no.

No, no, like you agree to it like, so i don't know. I feel like there's some crazy things to discuss, that's going on in the markets, um and obviously, as always. Thank you for your wealth of knowledge, because i guess without you we're: where would the apes be anyway? No it's great and thanks for having me on and that you know your uh, your colorful shirt is just so festive today. You know um this well.

I was recently in miami, so i'm inspired by the summer months of what's going on, but uh. I know with the blog post you like coined a new term and i like that, but i actually was thinking of a better idea um. Obviously, i think you're a little bit more known for inducements and incentives, and this is just an idea and maybe we should let chad decide. But what if, like you, got inducements tattooed on your back and i got incentives tattooed on my back and it only made sense if we were standing right by each other.

That's an idea like. I just want to float that out there, but i think it's. I don't know if i want to let the apes decide that one. I think it can work inducements and incentives.

So let's kick this off with the halt and i think the first question in everyone's mind. So for those of you who don't know uh five minutes into the trading day on tuesday march 29th, both amc and jimmy were doing very well. They went green, but then they came down and they came down to such a degree that it triggered what's referred to. As a circuit, breaker hall, first question out of the gate, are these halts um manipulation? Did you find the hall itself, like kind of suspect, the fact that it happened? Are they illegal? No so yeah they're, they're, they're perfectly legal, and i would say you know i, as i sort of said on twitter and and people, especially in the industry.

Very much disagree with me on this point. So you know i'm i'm just going to. This is my opinion that i i don't like the limit up limit down system. It came, it was inspired by the futures market and you might have heard a lot of this.

For example, last year when lumber was going crazy right, the price of lumber was going crazy and it was just limit up every day because in the futures market there there are these uh safeguards in place that something can only go up by so much in one Day and can only go down by so much in one day and so uh you saw lumber limit up every day and then on its way down. You saw it limit down every day. So when the flash crash happened in 2010 um, the regulators in the equities markets were like. You know.

How do we fix this, and instead of dealing with the underlying issues that i feel were you know the sort of proximate cause of the flash crash, which is the poor liquidity on exchange um and that poor liquidity is a factor of all sorts of things? But one of the biggest being the the high levels of off exchange trading and the fact that retail is siphoned off into the off exchange space uh. Instead of fixing those issues, they said, let's put a band-aid on it and let's only let things go up or down by so much and then we pause, and so that's where the limit up limit down system came from it's different than the market wide circuit, breaker Issue which is another sort of part of the response to the flash crash - and you know we don't have to get into that per se, but we saw that happen. You know i think at some point. Last year, the market wide circuit breakers were triggered, which was a very unusual event, but living up limit down is not so unusual, it happens and it happened in 2015 during the open and it made the markets go haywire, which was the exact thing i had been Concerned about which is the trying to to fix a comp, a problem in a complex system with a band-aid leads to sort of unintended consequences and more complexity and that's sort of what we saw in august of 2015..

All that aside, i don't i'm getting too much into the history of it, but you know there are rules, it's an automated system and the rules say: okay, we're going to watch, the arithmetic mean uh of the last five minutes of trading and as soon as that Crosses into uh, as soon as the nbbo crosses uh in you know, uh past that by a certain threshold, which is five percent um we're going to consider that security into uh, like it it's considered into the state and if it remains there for something like 15 Seconds they halt the stock for five minutes um, and so that's what happened and that's you know, sort of normal course of trading thing, given the rules that we have and it happened to gamestop uh and then you know seconds later. It also happened to amc. Okay, so just to recap on that for everyone, um there's some sort of arithmetic mean so you're, taking the average price and within a five minute window, which is always moving throughout the day. If it moves up too much or down too much, either way.

There's an automatic halt. This is not a human deciding it it's literally just programmed in, for i am assuming all equities all etfs of. If it moves too volatile too much high volatility up or down throughout the entire day, it's just going to get halted. Five minute hole: that's right, yeah and it's it's really it's for sort of uncontrolled volatility right.

So, if you're moving up like one percent every 10 minutes, that's fine. The limit limit limit down won't trigger uh. It's it's really. A matter of you know.

Is there a dislocation up or down and the concern being that that's what the flash crash looked like, which was a real dislocation and that it's better to stop trading everyone, take a pause, regroup and then reopen it and there's a reopening auction so that you, during An auction you have balance, broadcasts and and parties can come in and offset imbalances, and then you can in theory, get back to sort of you know. Fair and orderly trading now like to play the devil's advocate here. Could you actually is it fair, though, if that's like what market participants are saying, whether it's a huge run-up or a huge rundown, isn't that what the market is saying at that point in time like it seems like whether going up or down they're killing the momentum, But isn't that a part of natural markets that sometimes you build up momentum? Yeah i mean i i i think so and what i think the the the main thing you're looking for. Is it like you know what they would call orderly trading right? Is it something? That's that's going up gradually or is it something that's like like through the roof? Um and again i mean, i think, they're just a band-aid solution.

I i don't think that it's um, you know a good solution to the problem because it isn't solving anything per se. Um it you know it's, it's really just um, you know saying we can't solve the problem, so we're going to fix the symptom right gotcha. So in this particular scenario that we saw in gamestop and, like you said a couple of seconds later, both of them went up and then they came down. So it's actually a limit down.

So you could actually please correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't it right to say that they kind of squash, some bearish momentum that we saw because, like they were both gme and then followed by amc, they were coming down and then they got halted. So it seems like this was within the established rules and regulations and, as you said before, not illegal, it was, i guess, executed within the current state. But then your blog post, which you were pointing out, is it seems like the thing. That's interesting is what happened literally right after the hall, like i'm talking, 35 milliseconds right after that.

So could you dive into that a little bit more yeah? It was just. It was a bit crazy, um! I i haven't seen something like that before uh and funny enough, i had someone reach out to me um, who is a a quant at you know, a very large uh, high frequency firm who he's like you know. I disagree with half the stuff, you say, but actually you nailed the blog right now. That was exactly what i thought.

So i feel pretty good about my analysis, um and it was a funny conversation that we ended up having after that anyway, but uh. You know what what what a lot of people saw was. They saw the price spike up, they saw the price spike down and then they saw a halt and then, as the halt hit, suddenly like a bunch of people, got alerts on their phones, that their options were in the money at very high prices. And that was very confusing to a lot of people, and so what i tried to figure out was: why did that happen? Um? Well, no, to be fair! I i didn't actually set out to figure out.

Why did that happen? I just wanted to. It seemed like that was strange, so i wanted to look at what happened you know before and into the halt, and that's when i saw some really weird stuff in the market data um. So what happens when a halt happened and and a halt can be for many reasons right, you could halt a stock for news right pending news. You could halt a stock um because the sec has a regulatory uh injunction or you know you can all just stock for a circuit breaker and when, when there is a halt, a message goes out on the public market data feed the sip, and when that happens, Every exchange needs to stop trading and it includes equities, it includes options, it includes on exchange off exchange, everything has to stop um, and that is an administrative message and and your you are expected to act on it quickly and quickly.

Here means, like you know, a millisecond like nothing should take longer than a millisecond in markets, and you know for those who don't know there are a thousand milliseconds in one second. So i'm talking a thousandth of a millisecond like it takes you 300 milliseconds to blink. Your eye, so you know those are the the kind of timings that we're talking about. So what i saw in the market data was that, within a millisecond, every exchange reporting to the sip to the public market data feed went had a zero bid and a zero offer and that that's sort of what you would expect to see you halt.

There's no more trading, so there are no orders um and generally all the orders are supposed to be cancelled, except for one well for two exchanges, both operated by the cboe um and one which is one of the bats exchanges which uh didn't zero out for about. Five milliseconds, you know a bit long, but okay, you know, happens um and um. This is game, stop which i really looked at in detail, uh and then the other one was for the cboe edge x exchange and that took 35 milliseconds to zero out and during those 35 milliseconds. I saw one of the weirder things i've ever seen in market data and i've seen some in market data.

So you know what what i saw was you can imagine that on an exchange order book, if you've ever seen a level two book which i'm sure you know everyone here has you know you have orders at price levels right you have all these asks going up. The book you have all these bids going down the book and what i saw was that each bid and each each quote put out on the sip had uh like either one lot less on the bid or the offer or the price level went away. And so what it looked like to me was that edgex was going through their order book and cancelling it order by order and every time they canceled one, they sent another message out to the sip. So first of all, the exchange is like spamming.

The market data feed as far as the exchange was concerned, this all happened at the same time, which is the time stamp that all of these quotes had. So this is another thing, and i you know i tried to explain this on the blog post. It gets pretty complicated, but there are multiple time stamps on these messages. One is the time stamp from the exchange and one is the time stamp from the sip, and so what what i saw was that, even though the sip was sending a message, you know it took them 35 milliseconds to send out 11.

You know 1 112, quote updates, which first of all is slow uh. You should be able to send out that many quote updates in you know a millisecond or two. You could send them out. You know it would be a big spike, but you can do that.

Um, but the other thing is that the as far as the exchange was concerned, all of these messages originated before the halt, um and so for some reason. The sip kept broadcasting it out so either that or the exchange kept broadcasting it to the sip with bad data. I you know, there's no way to know what happened, but somewhere there was a technology issue that this has brought to light, and so you know, like i said uh that was a problem. The fact that um these orders were even resting on the book was a problem because they were quite clearly many of them at least retail orders right and - and i could see that by the funny prices - yeah um, which i you know really gave me quite a Laugh - and i'm sure you know like i said, people in the industry might disagree with me, but uh they're, all probably reading that blog post and laughing their asses off at the apes, because you know, like that's great, i'm sorry.

It's really hilarious that, like these, these crazy orders from the apes are breaking markets. It's just perfect right, chef, kiss kind of thing um, and, and so it's like this, this feedback loop of you know robin hood and other retail brokers posting all their orders on edgex, because edgex offers uh the highest rebate and then edgex screwing things up uh. As the halt takes place, which screws up the applications that everyone's looking at that results in you know this, this uh angst and distrust from retail investors - and you know it was uh it should never. None of this should have happened.

It didn't make any sense. So you know it was. It was disturbing to me, as i looked into it um, especially as i start started, to sort of get to the bottom of it, and - and i should say as i was looking at it, i was chatting with a friend of mine uh. You know a senior executive in in markets and telling him what i was finding and - and you know at first he was thinking it was something kind of benign and, as i got deeper and deeper into it, you know he had a very similar reaction, as i Did which is like this is just totally messed up and should never have happened, interesting uh, so to clarify one thing for everyone: the way payment for order flow is is connecting retail and, let's say, citadel securities rebates are what's connecting retail to the exchange edgex.

It's just like a roughly the same thing: it's just like rebates, you're, getting paid off by exchanges, while payment for overflow you're getting paid off by market bankers. So pretty much! Okay, that's right! It's a it's! It's another form of payment for order flow um, and it you know one i would argue not as insidious as the payment for order flow that diverts um orders off exchange, because at least things are on exchange, but relatively insidious because it it provides an inducement uh For brokers to route orders based on their own uh financial well-being, rather than the execution quality that they're going to get for their clients and their best execution, responsibilities, okay and then sip it sounds like is more of a grouping of all the data feeds, so sip Itself, who is the custodian of that like who is the person? Well, that's all part of this conflict of interest feedback loop, so the the sip is called the securities information processor and what the sip does is it takes in feeds from every exchange and every dark pool, and it consolidates it into the ticker right. So, if you've seen movies, where they have the ticker tape or ucc nbc, they have the ticker running. The ticker is the sip.

It's the public data feed, the public record of quotes and trades in the market uh. Now there are three sips tape: a tape b, tape c, not terribly important, but you know one of them is for naisi listed securities. One of them is for nasdaq listed securities, and one of them is for everything else and that two are operated by the new york stock exchange and one is operated by the nasdaq, so so they're operated by the exchanges. They are governed by the exchanges.

So there are nms committees, national market system, committees, that all the exchanges are members of uh that that govern the sip set fees set. You know investments and capex expenditures that kind of thing um, and so it's it's so disturbing and messed up, because uh each of those exchanges has a competing product right. Each of those exchanges offers their own feeds that are faster than the sip and, if anything should be, you know understood about markets. Is that speed is everything it's insane? I i know i know it's totally insane and it's the kind of thing that i've been railing against, for you know 10 years now, because it's so obviously insane so exchanges operate their own feeds.

They sell them for crazy amounts of money. If you want to subscribe to every direct feed from every exchange, you're going to be paying like six figures a month and the people who would be doing that. Sorry to interrupt. I'm assuming the delay between the private ones and the sip has to be milliseconds, which means the only people doing it are high frequency traders, like no normal person, would be like.

I need that extra millisecond because, like you said it's a tenth of the speed at which we blink, so it's exclusively selling a product to high frequency traders like that's the only reason we have this, that's pretty much it and that's certainly how it started now. You know some of the brokers subscribed to it, some of the dark pools, but, broadly speaking, yes, this is a product for high frequency um and for broker order routing because they have to try to keep up with it. Interesting, okay, so now that we get the general sense of why this even exists in this one scenario that we saw, especially when people were getting erroneously, like, i guess, notified um, i could argue reading through your blog post, that there was blame to be had in Multiple places, but first for the brokers, it sounds like they just didn't properly code for edge cases, then when they were taking the median of zero, so that that's just coding and that's what you get with the likes of robin hood and weeble, but more to the Sip and edgex, wherever whoever the culprit is in this scenario, the sip, i believe the terminology you used was more of uh, even though they get a lot of money. Apparently, it's not enough to keep the infrastructure as strong as it could, but if it is edgex that particular thing a particular exchange run by the sibo cboe um, is it like illegal what they did or do they just have bad reporting, because it sounds like everyone Else basically did it in one millisecond and then there was another player who did it in five, but for them to be at 35 milliseconds.

If that is what truly happened, do they get in trouble for that? Do they just have code themselves like what's going on there? So i think there are. There are um two things here so first in terms of the sip uh, the exchanges receive hundreds of millions of dollars every year to maintain the sip, and i can assure you that it does not cost 10 million dollars a year. Okay, it's a joke and it's a public subsidy. So if you believe in free markets, as i do um, you know, you want open competition and you don't want subsidization of shitty businesses and that's what we have in u.s markets.

Is we subsidize exchanges and by subsidizing these exchanges we end up with a lot of them uh? So we have. You know 15 stock exchanges when we should have like three, and so that's a big part of the problem in the entire system is the fact that the public pays a huge amount of money for market data. You don't realize it not. Everyone gets charged explicitly, but you know your retail broker takes some of your commissions or some of that payment for order flow that they earn and they pay.

You know a couple dollars per user per month for non-professional users and way more than that, something like 40 or 50 dollars per user per month for professional users. All of that money adds up to hundreds to like a billion dollars and that billion dollars gets allocated to exchanges with a very complicated formula it's not worth getting into, but you know, needless to say, it's like hundreds of millions of dollars per major exchange. Family naisi, nasdaq and cboe um. So it's terrible! It's a crazy system.

It's not a free market system um and it's part of one. It's really one of the biggest problems um in markets. Now that aside, the the edgex issue is likely problematic for them because they are regulated under this uh regulation called sci and sci means that you can't have technology problems as an exchange, and if you do, it needs to be reported, you need to fix it. You need to have all these systems in place to test and everything so um.

You know it's it's it's it's a complicated regulation uh. I assume that this is going to result in an sci report um by edgex to the sec. They're going to you know have to fix it um and so yeah, you know again like they are being subsidized by the public uh to run their exchange and they're still not doing it properly. Wow.

Do you think if, like is this, something that could have been swept under the rug, but then do you think between the apes and your blog posts like there's just no way or do you think 100 percent it like it could have just disappeared, but now, i'm Sure this this has i'm sure this has happened before um. I there's no way this hasn't happened before how you know. How is it suddenly? It just happens in amc and gamestop. That's no, not a chance.

It only was found because you know i think people are now paying attention and also you know robin had totally screwed up with the alerts so suddenly, like the apes, get a bunch of alerts. They're like what's going on. I'm like! Oh, that's weird: why don't i go take a look and then i see this in the data. There's no way this hasn't happened plenty of times before i mean at edgex, there's definitely like a list and you just went to the top like they like.

They erased number one, they moved everyone down and i think they did that in sub 35 milliseconds, so they were probably probably at least one thing and they're like dave lauer, like, unfortunately, i'm sure i was on the cbo list going in so uh yeah, maybe moved Up a little but yeah, i like it, i like it so with that. I i this what it sounds like is it's showing a misallocation of funds, uh lack of proper infrastructure, weird business practices, but in it would you say that this particular instance somehow, like? I guess like hurt the price or ended up having a manipulative impact on price, or is it just showing like once again, like particular, like fragility aspects of how the markets currently run yeah, i think that's probably the way to look at it is. It shows the fragility of markets um and i could probably have done a deeper exploration of the market data which i you know i really didn't have time for that. You know, that's probably like a couple of day long project, but you know i could have looked at um what happened as it ran up my my expectation, for example, is it probably got right to the limit up threshold and what you often find in the market Is that hft firms know exactly where the thresholds are and they're sitting there with orders? Because the expectation is it's going to bounce off the threshold? And so there was probably a wall of orders that it ran into.

You know at 199.41 because i did see a bunch of trades there and one and in the 199s for gamestop and then it fell, uh and ultimately fell into the limit down state. And you know i i'm sure, like the dynamics and it was identical with amc. Uh and when i took a brief look at the amc data, i saw the same thing. It was worse in terms of edgex's.

You know spamming of the sip it went on, for i think 56 milliseconds or something so you know you see. You saw very similar patterns, um and i you know, i think you could probably examine sort of the trading dynamics and see what was going on, but you know i i think, generally speaking yeah, this is more sort of an indictment of um. You know the fragility of markets than than anything more than that you know superficially, i think thank you. I appreciate that um.

So speaking of fragility and markets and just insane market moves uh, could you give everyone like a quick rundown of what is happening in the london metal exchange right now, because it's one of these things? That sounds so crazy, but i think it's um. In terms of, i guess, the psychology of what takes off, it seems a little bit weird just because it's commodities, it's an exchange, that's not in the u.s, so i don't know if it's a thing, that's really going to get traction in terms of like what u.s Retail apes are paying attention to, but this seems to be like one of the most like in your face like we're, like just complete players right now, yeah, it's it's a it's really shocking and it's it's shock what's interesting. Here, i think, is the visibility of it. Um in the industry is, maybe even you know, i won't say, excuse me more than than gamestop and amc, but it's it's it's that level, but it's it's something that is becoming visible to people that weren't really paying much attention to us: equity markets, um, and so What we see is the nickel market in london is that i mean that's the main i don't know.

If i don't even know if there are others that is certainly uh. The main um market for nickel is the london metals exchange and um it. It's usually. You know sort of a pretty boring market doesn't do much um and it's very much a market that is not for speculation.

Really it's a market for firms to hedge um. So it really is you know. Futures markets are very important. Um in terms of uh, the real world consequences of markets, because futures markets are used by corporations to hedge pricing, risk um, which, if you want, we can get into um.

But it's you know it just. Needless to say, it's something that is used for something other than trading, which is one of the main functions of markets. And what happened in nickel was that a chinese billionaire opened up a short position in nickel that ended up being. As far as i understand larger than the actual physical supply in the world, the global physical supply so reasonable.

Again, this does this all sound kind of you know similar to things we've seen in u.s equities markets. So he has this massive short position open and apparently one of the firms that facilitated that short position is jp, morgan, a very powerful international bank. Suddenly the ukraine war starts and things start going. Haywire and nickel is one of those and so because i guess the nickel supply a big portion of it comes from russia and suddenly there are sanctions and it's harder to get nickels.

So the price is going to go up. So the price starts. Flying to the point where it would have made, you know this guy put him underwater bankrupted him potentially represented a systemic risk to jp morgan, which is a systemically important institution, um, and so the london metal exchange saw this happening stopped trading not just and didn't just Stop trading cancelled all the trades, that's the craziest thing trades entered into by two counter parties willingly busted and then it happened again and it happened again and they just kept busting a full day's worth of trading over and over again, and that is just like completely Insane and and it's it's both crazy in general, but what you have to understand, which i don't you know a lot of people, don't quite realize this um, but when, when many firms enter a trade, it's not just that they're buying something or selling something they're buying. Something here and selling something here right, so market making that's very standard, even something called pairs trading there.

There are all sorts of trading strategies that involve multiple legs or multiple securities. So if you're a firm and let's say you are buying nickel all day on the london metal exchange, maybe you are selling it selling like an etf or you're selling uh. You know short companies in the us that are exposed to nickel. You know something is happening on the other side of that trade, so when all of your nickel trades are busted all of a sudden, you are exposed on the other side of these trades and that's a big deal and that's part of why people in the industry Are so angry about this because it exposes them to losses from hedging that you know when these things turn out to not be hedges, they ended up being you know, risk that they were taking on that they didn't expect to be, and so it really is like The kind of thing that is going to to completely ruin the london metals exchange it's going to completely ruin confidence in markets in their market um.

It may be the good part, is you know? Hopefully there will be a competing metal exchange that will come about um or you know. Maybe it will bring um. You know there. There is the, i guess: there's the nymex, the new york metal exchange, um, which or maybe you know - that's mostly been energy contracts on nymex for a long time.

I don't know if they have a metal contracts. I should look into that, but you know you would think this will help with competing exchanges, because i i have to imagine the lme is just done after this wow uh our mutual equation standing moses. I believe when i just that movie, the big short wasn't jp. Morgan also, the bank that like was carrying way too big, of a position with that market and then, oh for sure.

I think it was actually his particular subgroup that had to in the movie, the quote was like we're paying off your gambling debts, which is so interesting to see. Right now is like once again in a a weird scenario like this, so i mean have you seen it before? Everyone in exchange is like all these trades they're just done like they did not happen like they're, just erasing it they're saying um. The only thing i've ever seen, uh that comes anywhere close, is the flash crash in which you did have trades that were busted uh, but when that happened, those were trades that were considered clearly erroneous. So there there are standards in markets in u.s, equities markets.

It's called that are called clearly erroneous rules and they define that. You know there is a a percentage off the market. You know you have a fat finger, trade or a mistake. Um you can file something with the exchange that it happens on and you have like.

I don't remember a half hour to file it and you need to say to the exchange. Okay. In the last half hour, this trade happened. It was clearly erroneous.

It's a mistake bust it. The flash crash trades were busted. Under that rule, there were a handful of them right. It wasn't all of them.

It was the ones that happened far enough off the market that they were again clearly erroneous um. So that's it. It has happened before. But again it is a a time-constrained issue.

Um and it's something where uh you know there: there are well-defined rules and it was like in the flash crash. It was like you know, a 10-minute period of time. I have never heard of a day's worth of trading being busted. That's just it's so ridiculous uh.

When i saw you first starting to tweet about it, i looked at the london mental exchange and then i had covered the story from the sense of like. Oh, is this billionaire who lost? I think at that point it was like 8 billion, and then i looked at who owned the london metal exchange and that's a hong kong exchange and then obviously just the way the government and business intersect over there. I was like well that's a pretty obvious one and then it's interesting to see that they're. Basically at this point now in bed with jb morgan, just being a massive international bank - and i guess with all that craziness is - is something gon na happen.

Like are people looking at it or regulators saying what the like, how are they just not getting sued to kingdom come or they will and then just declare bankruptcy? And that's like the end of the lme it i i have to imagine that there are going to be some significant lawsuits coming. Yeah um, you know it's again. You're the people that are upset are no they're, not small players right. You have other billionaires that are really angry.

You know cliff asness, who is sort of leading the charge on twitter against this uh, who runs aqr, which is one of if not the largest quant funds in the world. Um - and you know you know - he's livid over this and and for again for good reason: it's just totally crazy um. So you know you're you're, pissing off. You know one part of the industry um to protect another part of the industry and specifically to protect jp morgan and this billionaire, and you know, i think, that's the kind of thing that there will be action.

But you know, regardless of the outcome it. I can't imagine that you know the the lme will survive this. That's that's just absolutely crazy, but it seems like it's so wild uh, looking at how this has all played out and like just even retails um personal emotional investment into this we've gone from like hey haha. This is like a reddit thing and we're just buying this stock to see what happens to now.

Having like these crazy discussions of like retail, like the nickel exchange, like the edgex 35 milliseconds like this, is i feel i don't know how you personally got to this level. But now the average person is getting some of the most in-depth market structure, knowledge and i'm sure that retail that you speak with like we have to get more but like this is stuff that, like unless you're in the industry, you would never know. This is not going to be taught at college. This won't be taught at any program like you have to actively be a worker in the industry at.

I would assume somewhat of a high level to even understand what the hell this stuff means. Oh, you know it's been um one it like. I said you know people have reached out and and at least on this particular one complimented me on the analysis. You know no one uh was reaching out on my payment for order flow analysis, but you know that's.

Okay, um, but uh yeah people ask me all the time. Where can i learn more and i usually don't have a good answer for them? Um you have to kind of have built these systems. Frankly, it's not even just analyze them, but having built them puts you in a pretty unique place. But that being said, i i love messages.

I've seen when i posted that that blog post and and people saying to me you know i can't believe i understand what you're saying, but i you know i do, and i never would have a year ago uh. So that is exciting to see, and you know, as we uh come out with the terminal which will be you know over the next month or so uh part of what we're going to come out with is the education side of it in which we do. You know we're going to provide resources to teach this kind of stuff if you're interested in it, but really to get deeper into um. You know market structure, financial literacy, fundamental investing technical analysis.

You know all the things that i think people want to learn about and whatever people request we're going to try and organize some resources get some experts that you know from the industry on to talk about their their areas of expertise. Um. You know we really want to share information and the best thing about um the education side, of what we're going to do that it will always be free. It's you know we're.

It's part of our mission is to spread this information and - and you know i that's - i love doing that. Like i love talking about this stuff and i love that people care about it, um and they you know it's it's it's just uh. It's so cool that that, like i say it every time right, it's just so cool people care about it and want to get deep into it, because it is interesting and fascinating and also needs to be fixed. And you can't, you can't argue for something to be fixed if you don't understand it in depth.

Yeah definitely agree well on behalf of the community and also on a personal once again. Thank you so much for your time. Obviously, a wealth of knowledge uh for all the listeners right now, the website is on your screen and then also don't forget to give dave a follow on twitter. All this information and also resources for this discussion are all in the description of the video, so feel.

Free to reference that, obviously, as dave mentioned, this is all 100 free. Just go check out the resources you can read the blog post uh, the blog post. You can read about limit up limit down those rules and then obviously just check out what dave is posting on twitter, but overall, thank you so much. I really appreciate it dave and we'll be talking soon.

Sure thing always good to see. You have a good one. Bye you too thanks folks. There you have it and i hope you truly enjoyed it.

Um feel free to watch it again. Like i said, the resources are there. On a personal note, i would ask all of you. Dave is 100 worth of follow.

Uh he's one of the guys who has really really helped bring the apes to the next level of understanding of what is going on. I would i can 100 confidently say we would not be anywhere where we are without dave as a resource, and he does this all 100. On his own time i mean i texted him. Last night i was like hey.

Can we talk tomorrow, he's like more than happy to he's a great great guy, give him a follow on twitter check out the terminal check out his blog post necessary 100 necessary? That's what i have for you today, i'll be posting some vods and all that good stuff uh later on. That's what i have for you. I appreciate your time have an absolutely bea beautiful day catch you later.