What's going on moon gang, i'm very excited to bring you this interview with mark quijotis. Throughout the interview we talk about some of his battles with legitimate wall street titans. Then we discuss some of the illicit and highly unethical actions performed by some prime brokers and market makers. Then we hear his thoughts on what potentially may have really gone down between the likes of robin hood and citadel securities in january of this year, as it relates to both gamestop and amc.

I really think that you're gon na enjoy it and just very quickly. One word of caution: some of the language throughout the interview is a bit colorful just so you know welcome welcome. Thank you very much for joining us on this today, mr mark kahodis. I am particularly excited for all the things we're about to dive into, because when i was doing a deep dive on you, you very much seem to be a worn, torn battle-tested traitor, who has legitimately stood toe-to-toe with i'm talking some serious people within the entire wall Street world, and because of that, it seems like one of the core tenants you always seem to be going on is looking for people who are doing things that are nefarious illegal and illicit, and you are more than happy to call it out and through your very Very storied career, i'm telling everyone out there give this a quick google search like the things we're getting into.

This are very much just scraping the service. I think that you're able to give us a unique insight, because this ape community, a lot of what we're talking about, is exactly that that we feel like the training. The the field that we're playing on is not fair, there's manipulation, there's illicit things going on, and i think you particularly have a unique insight into that and i'm more than happy to kind of get out some of your knowledge in this interview. Thank you.

So much for joining us. Well, it's an honor to be here. It'll be a lot of fun and i i enjoy your stuff and there's a lot of stuff out there that people think about me. That's true and there's a whole lot out there, that's false! So the one thing is: is i'm a man of my word and when i say it, it's if i'm gon na it i'm gon na throw it.

So what i say is the truth and it's it's verified, so i'm i'm excited for this, so anything goes, throw it all out there there's no there's no script, there's no, nothing! So the harder! The question the better all right so just to set a little bit of a foundation when i was doing a deep dive on you. I saw some things that it seemed like they were a little bit weird. It didn't add up to me so out of the game, have you now or ever been short amc or gamestop ever never. Never! In my life, i'm 61 years old, i've never been short of share of either of those i've never been short bb or any of the other meme stocks, and - and it's not my - i have absolutely zero interest in those names.

I don't go after. I view those companies as benign companies they're not out there, to hurt anybody. They may not be out there to help anyone, but i mean amc is a: is a movie theater, there's nothing wrong with being in the movie theater business movie. Theater business is fine.

It may grow, it may not grow, they may grow fast, they may grow slow, they may decline. It's there's, nothing! There's nothing! That amc. Does that hurts a soul. There's nothing gme! Does that hurts a soul? Some people think they're obsolete.

Some people think they go out of business, but that's what the market's for so so i in terms of business-wise, i really could care less on either one of them. Okay, but with that being said, obviously uh with like some of the words if we're really getting into it, and it's not hard to find it. You have shorted some companies and in when i was like seeing what was going on and your reasoning for shorts. You've kind of come up with a unique way where you describe shorts in three different buckets.

Could you share that with everyone sure the kind of stuff i do and there's been two harvard business school cases written about me? One is about nova star, which is a subprime mortgage, lender they're out of business, and they did all sorts of horrifically bad things to financially uh unsophisticated people which just drives me crazy and another one was sidney jewelers who, before the management, changed and think i was Responsible for the old management being out would charge people ridiculous rates of interest and all sorts of fees for jewelry. They wouldn't make any money send selling the jewelry they'd make money on all the ancillary services. So harvard wrote two business cases about me there and i'm happy. I made changes, but by and large i go after frauds i go after people who are trying to cheat others, whether that's the government in over charging people for drugs or mistreating the va or selling unsophisticated people, timeshares or money launderers or people who engage in kitty Porn people who do who deserve to be wiped off the planet are tend to be folks who i go after that's one basket.

The other basket are people, you know, let's just say like melvin, who thinks a company is going to be obsolete or have problems or go out of business, so they'll short the stock at a level. Let's call it 50 and they'll think it's gon na go to five ten, two three things like that: people who, who think the earnings estimates are too high people who think that management's, incompetent people who think technologically will put you out of business and there's nothing wrong With that, where i think, where i think has created a lot of this, these problems are these so-called activist short sellers and the act of the short sellers tend to find companies, and they come with these hyperbolic stories that when you read it scares the living out Of people scares people to death, so they read it. You hear that dog barking um, it scares the crap out of people and and folks who are not sophisticated in the market, read something horrible with a price target of zero and they don't have the wherewithal to research it. So they just sell the stock and the stock whooshes down, and the person who writes the report sadly covers the same day and then it all blows over and the stock.

A lot of time goes up between five and 20 times, and that kind of i just hate that kind of stuff. I hate. I wrote an op-ed in the financial times a year and a half ago, people read it and people in the short selling business start screaming at me and i told them to go themselves. I said i think it's horrible what you do to people and the whole.

The whole basis of that is to encourage joe six-pack to sell their stock to panic people into selling stock, because i think the individual, if they just think clearly and as i say as i like to say, if you can explain what you're in and explain it To a 10th grader in a paragraph or less you're, probably on to something pretty good and and institutions and big money, guys think the joe six packs are stupid and they look down upon them and i just think that's wrong. I think it's wrong, because everyone is entitled to a point of view. Everyone can think everyone can come up with a good idea and a lot of times simpler is better. So so those are the three buckets.

There's there's about three people left who do what i used to do, because i don't do this anymore because it's too dangerous and we can get into that going after horrifically bad guys, hurting hurting society screwing with people ripping people off for their own financial good. Then there's fundamental guys who pick on names then there's the activist guys, so those those are pretty much the three buckets. I see. Okay, that's awesome! Now, even though, obviously you kind of you really are like an investigator, that's what you're doing a deep dive in all this stuff and you're, finding people who are fraudulent, but it seems to sometimes also go the other way.

I saw that you were kind of intertwined with the entire overstock debacle. Can you just give us like the high-level cliff notes of that scenario, so on on overstock? I go back with overstock to about 2003, when we were first shorted when we thought the thing was a mess and we thought burn was crazy and and burn is crazy. I love them and, and we've got i've gone from enemy, with burn to pals, with burn to enemy with burn. Now i think i'm neutral with burn um.

We thought their business was, was really a mess and they were ripping people off and my former partner really got into it with burn. You know arguing publicly and i and i told them not to because we're going to get sued and and the reason why is burn comes from a family where he's worth billions of dollars. That's one two. He is crazy, which means he has absolutely no bounds and you never get in a fight with a crazy person or an argument with a crazy person.

The argument wise because people watching won't know who the crazy one is and this guy can fight to the death because he has plenty of money, so he's a he's, a very dangerous enemy and at the time in 2003-4, in there his business was up. I mean he had no controls, he was making stuff up, he was. He was telling stuff that wasn't true, and if and if my former partner would have just kept his mouth shut, we would have been fine, but he kept going and we ended up getting sued on the basis that it wasn't. Naked shorting was the basis that my partner wrote the research for another firm which wasn't true, but you can say whatever you want in a lawsuit and as long as you survive motion to dismiss it keeps on going so they sued us for a billion dollars.

So if you've ever been a party of a personal lawsuit where you're on the hook for a billion dollars and you're not worth a billion dollars, that's a real that's a real wake-up call, uh and through all the stuff, because we don't have all day. We settled it for six million dollars because it would have cost me eight million dollars to go to trial and get the thing thrown out. So if it would cost me eight on an uncertain outcome, i'd rather pay six for the thing to be over, but then, where it started getting exciting is afterwards. How did it actually happen afterwards when we settled with when i settled with bern? I said now that we've settled you picked on the wrong guy, because we were the victim of the naked shorting because goldman who was loaning us the shares, never borrowed them, and you should go after goldman and the prime brokers who you should have always gone after And not us, you had the right idea, but you knocked on the wrong house.

There was nothing in the house. You were right to find bin laden on that block, but you just went to the wrong house. This is the house you should go to so he ended up suing goldman and he ended up suing merrell and there's a famous deposition that i'm in that the goldman lawyer screwed up and is unsealed and it's available for anyone to get on the internet. You just google mark, kahoda's, goldman, overstock, deposition, it'll, come right up and it's a tremendous read and i exposed what the prime brokers do and how they're naked short and how they don't borrow the shares and, i think, burn collected between marilyn goldman 50 million bucks.

So gold so burn and i became pals and then time went on and i thought over stock got too cheap and i bought a ton of overstock between 10 and 15 and now the thing's 80.. So i've done so i've i've. You know, overstock has been part of my life for the last 20 years, so i i can almost i don't have any tattoos, but i could get an overstock tattoo. So yeah i was i you know when you're, i'm 61 and i've been doing this professionally since 82 and i've been doing it screwing around since probably 76.

When you go at it that long, you know, like nolan ryan, you set the record for wins. You set the record for losses. You set the record for strikeouts, you set the record for walks because you've been doing it, so damn long and you've seen so much stuff. Exactly that's that's a fascinating story and i i just need to rewind a little bit because i know all the apes watching this right now, their ears perked up you're, talking about a prime broker and naked shorting.

There are people frothing at the teeth, to learn more exactly about what happened and how it happened and if there's a way that there's like obvious signs of it, so the more you could share about like specifically naked shorting and people going short without the broker ever Finding the shares i can guarantee people watching right now, that's exactly what they want to know about. Okay, so i've been on all parts of it and this is a perfect form to explain it and then i'll pass at least give people my judgment, you can come to your own conclusion in the era we were talking about back then in the 2003 four five Thing this is before there was this reg show and force buy-in thing. So what happened was we as a customer, copper river would go to goldman and say: can we borrow a hundred thousand shares of overstock and they'd say yes and they would charge us? Probably ten percent annually to borrow those shares, so if we borrowed a hundred million dollars of overstock we'd have to pay him 10 million dollars in fees as any of the stocks we would borrow. It is 100 percent full stop illegal to for a customer, and i can either be an institutional customer or person to short a stock without a borrow.

The computer. Now will not let you enter the order. So if i log on to my interactive broker account and tried to sell a stock, it would not enter the order unless it was borrowed there same thing with schwab, same thing with morgan stanley same thing with everybody, so it is full stop illegal for the customer. The hedge fund, too sure to stop without a borrow goldman and goldman settled with the sec when they went after him.

Goldman pay to find a burn or paid a penalty to burn goldman would create the shares by running conversions by trading in the market for stock. To get the fake shares to loan to us that they never had and if they charged us 12 negative rebate, it would probably cost them four to set up the trade, so it was goldman who was on the hook, who never had the shares, not the customer. Now burn and crew made a huge deal to the sec about this, and the rule changed sometime in 2008 2009. So in this whole drama, if you will, there was a rule change in 2008 2009, which made what goldman did very hard and and more illegal and torturous for them.

So so this this, we ended up being short without a borrow, but it wasn't us because we paid in those years a hundred million dollars in borrow fees for stocks on a fake locate. So so so the real disadvantage party was us because we paid 100 million dollars for a service that that never appeared so goldman ripped us off and other clients off. So the prime brokers are as bad as bad can be, but they charge ins. They rip institutions off robin hood, rips off their customers, citadel rips off everybody, but it's all a matter of trying to facilitate a transaction for money.

So when people casually throw out naked shorts that there's more short out there than there is in the float, that may be true, but those shares can also be created by option market makers and it's totally legal for option. Market makers, citadel, probably being one of the biggest ones to be short without a borrow, because if they ever get questioned on it, they say they have to maintain a fair and orderly market and when options in gme or amc or bb or whatever the name is, Are trading tens of thousands of contracts? If you - and i are market makers right you and i are market makers, we can't be at risk for a billion dollars worth of stock, because if it moves the slightest degree against us, you and i are bust. We can't do that, so what we have to do is we're constantly running hedges against our option book. If, if someone is buying a load of puts you and i have to be short, the stock against the puts, because if the bottom falls out right, we'll lose billions of dollars, so we have to be short and you say: hey mark, you know: we've sold all These puts we got to get short the stock and i'll just say short.

The stock and you'll say: doesn't it borrow bother you and your conscience? We can't borrow it and i'd, say: homie, look right, we're within the law that we don't need to borrow the stock unless we have our ratios right and the bottom drops out of this thing. You and i are dead right, and this is our job right. So, if we're, if we have 29 000, puts that we're on the hook for in gme or amc or bb, we have to be short a similar amount, because if this thing goes down, we get wiped out. However, if it starts going up and going up a lot, you and i then have a huge problem, because we're short all this stock right, the puts all of a sudden, become worthless because the stock's moving higher.

Then we have another problem. So so the whole thing with this getting people very short without the borrow that's sort of the foreplay to the sex show the sex show is what happens when these things get dislocated and and that's why, now that i have a little incremental time on my hands? I'm trying to help out to go back to the crime scene, which was back in january and not today and and i've gone on a couple: uh twitter spaces thing, and i i did some stuff and i've been in constant contact with senator warren's office since february. Trying to lend a hand and point people in the right direction, but the real crime scene was what went down and what hurt all these people in january, which is what i'm trying to focus on when you, when you, ladies and gentlemen, focus on all this naked Shorting stuff, it's what the citadels of the world want you to focus on, because they can say that the naked shorting in these names was perfectly legal. Due to you know, if you look on page five reg6504-7 shows we could be naked short.

So it's a convoluted, complicated, um thing that even i and i've been doing this a long long long time. I can explain it, but it's very hard to articulate it, oh so so, just from um to help clarify it a little bit just so. Everyone watching is on the same page, so of course we could talk about market makers such as virtue and citadel securities. Let's save that for a little bit better later and it just because um their leeway is much greater, much much greater of what you could do.

As a market maker, so for a little bit, let's focus on these prime brokers and how they can almost seemingly get away legally with an illegal borrow type of the scenario and just the highlight of the options. So you're saying hedge fund calls them up and they're. Like, yes, i want to short and the prime broker they're like they're greedy. They want that business.

They know they don't have those shares so to artificially make it look like they have those shares, i'm assuming what they load up on out of the money calls or they're selling deep in the money puts to just artificially fake the position and they're like oh yeah. We're borrowing against they buy, they buy deep. Deep in the money puts okay, okay, they buy deep in the money puts, then they sell a call to basically create the shares at the last sale to sell. They basically create the shares by buying a deep in the money put and selling a call.

So so they can create the share at 32.50 with the stock at 31.70 and they keep the 80 cents as their vic plus they charge commission right, gotcha, they're, they're, fine and everything is dandy. As long as things don't get out of hand, if the bottom falls out of the stock, it's great because the deep in the money put covers you. Okay, a huge problem is when the stock just absolutely takes off, because then all of a sudden the put becomes worthless, but the short call, the tail of the short call will kill you. Okay, so if you're sure to call at 40 right and you're in there to collect the money to set up the stock - and let's just use gamestop for example, and we'll run back to gamestop in a minute when the stock goes so goldman figures out.

And i'm just goldman's not going to sue me, but i'm just using goldman as an example. You can use charles schwab goldman in their computers, say, there's a 98 chance. This thing will never get above 40., so we're all we're. Okay and we'll give you credit short.

The 40 call right, but the second this thing blows out and the put becomes worthless. The tail of the call is what killed people it got them short and it killed people. So let's say you're, melvin and and and melvin plopkin nice enough guy, but he's arrogant. He got very greedy and he was way over leveraged and he was his mistake in gamestop.

Is he just should have covered it at three or four or five and gone home right and, as i like to say, people will pay three dollars just to watch two rats and, and and the problem is when you get greedy and you don't cover it at Three and then it goes to seven, then it goes to ten. He says in his mind, i'm so right on this thing and people are so wrong. I wan na short some more ten, so he calls up goldman and says i want to short some more take an order to short the stock. Sorry gabe, we can't borrow it can't borrow any more shares.

He says. Okay, if i can't borrow any shares, i'm going to buy notional a million dollars, a million shares worth of puts so that's that's. 10 000 puts right the stock's at 10., so let's say he wants to buy 10 000. It's it's april, 2nd.

He wants to buy 10 000 of the may, 15 puts okay and you - and i are market makers right. You and i are market makers in gamestop, so we get an order by 10, 000 gamestop may 15 puts stocks at 10.. The puts are worth five and then you - and i say what should the premium be and i'd say this is a vowel last stock. Three so we'd say: okay, we'll offer the ten thousand puts at eight right, they're worth five three premium and plotkin says fine.

I'll buy them right, so you and i do the trade three dollar premium type it in the computer. The computer says that it at 10 being fully in the money you and i need to be short. 890 000 shares right to offset the risk, because if the bottom drops out of this thing, i don't want to be out 10 bucks. Do you? You want to lose 10 bucks on a trade, no we're in the business of making a spread.

So the market maker goes and shorts 890 000 shares right, puts pressure on the stock because you're putting cell pressure on the stock. Do we have it borrowed? No, because you can't borrow it, but we need to hedge it yeah. We need to sell the shares because that's the business we're in we're in the business of of hedging option trades just like. If someone wanted to buy the in the money calls we'd have to go, buy 891 000 shares of stock.

You and i we don't give a right we're there to make a market we're we're independent we've seen the stock go up or down we're in there to make our spreads right, so plotkin buys ten thousand puts a million shares. You and i are short, eight. Ninety, a day later, all of a sudden, the stock's 14 and a half right and plotkins losing and all of a sudden these puts are worth a lot less and instead of you and i being short 890, the computer says at 14. We should only be short, 200.

right because you're closer to the the money line, so then we have to go on the market and buy 600 000 shares. So when we go on the market to buy the stock, the stock starts moving out. So, by the time we're done, okay, this thing's 16 and a quarter. Then the computer says you should only be short: 38 000 shares, so we buy more stock and now the stock 17..

Okay. This is what's going on now, you and i have made because we're making in the premium, even though this is painful, plotkin comes back or someone else comes back. The next dance has the stocks rallied. I want to buy 20 000 of the june 20 puts right and we say here we go again right and - and we keep rinsing and repeating at some point in time when this thing detached market makers were short, so much stock against no borrow the margin requirement In the melt up absolutely burn the wires out, because you - and i are talking you know - because the stock used to move four to five, six to eight eight to seven right, just small moves, but when you take a situation from 25 to 450.

These are moves that have never been recorded in history and the leverage that the market makers and the funds used completely and utterly melted down the system wow and the people who were long were making a fortune at the expense of what they said were the the Suits but the suits were the market makers. The suits were the imbecile hedge funds, who were losing their ass. They lost their ass right, so so there's no bigger penalty for them than money and they were losing a ton of money. But it was because you know when everyone says naked shorts, it's fine to say it, but it was a market maker driven game to take and hedge their exposure on the puts 100 very, very interesting one 100 and the reason the government and the media and politicians.

Don't want to go, there is when the truth comes out and it will come up, it will come out. I don't know when, but it will. People will realize that this whole thing that i'm now trying to fight this flicking of the switch was only done to keep the citadels and others in the game. It was a wealth transfer from the people who owned gamestop and amc and the calls to others, because if it would have kept going any longer, you would have melted it down, because the hook in all this is when griffin invested his billions to melvin.

Yes, yes, yes, and he said that melvin is one of the greatest investors of his generation he's full of more than a christmas turkey, because gabe was in business for a while and if he was such a great investor, invest with him day. One invest with him year: two invest with him year: three, don't invest with him when he has two days left to be in business. It was a nut. It was money to keep plotkin alive because if they would have melted the stock up another day, all hell would have broken loose.

The only people who would have been happy were the holders of gme and amc, because the market was starting to sort of get a little funky and unwind, because people realized that the if the leverage got unwound at the citadel level there'd be huge problems. No, so is sorry to interrupt there, but do you think it's theoretically possible that citadel securities, the world's largest market maker - and i would argue that it's a duopoly right now between both citadel and virtue, but at that time they had much more market share. Do you think it's theoretically possible, they realized that they were leveraged to the tits. It was going against them and right now the court documents are saying we did not pressure.

Robinhood could be true. Do you think it's possible that they called up some regulatory body that then talked to the nscc and said get robin hood in check before everything goes tits up? Is that a possibility a likelihood like what are your thoughts on citadel securities reaching out to the government? Saying this could end very, very poorly for everyone, one hundred percent, one 100 percent wow, one thousand percent - and this is why, when i talk to senator warren's people, i connect the dots very simply that it was probably ken griffin or someone at citadel and and someone Volunteered to do something for me to come up and create a document of how many government people high up government people now work at citadel, including bernanke, including sec, guys, including doj, guys it becomes a revolving door. He is so leveraged. I think i'm pretty sure he's bank of america's and that's a kind of a real place bank of america.

I think he's bank of america's largest customer, so he is, they are so leveraged citadel, so leveraged that this had the chance of of putting them in a very, very, very bad spot. And now, since they're considered a too big to fail guy, he basically said and and again this is my opinion gang. So don't hold me to it, but i think i can back it up. He probably went either to the new york fed or had someone go to the new york fed and say, look guys.

This gamestop amc experiment has turned frankenstein like it's gotten out of hand. They're gon na put melvin out of business, which we don't give a about, but we're gon na have to bail him out, so he's no longer buying this stuff. But unless this stops tomorrow we do not have the capital to take option expiration at 400 bucks. So you do whatever the you need to do to slow this down in vlad, who, i wouldn't trust, running a lemonade, stand that guy he has no, he is just a face of something the guy who runs robin hood is gallagher and gallagher is a former sec.

Commissioner, so their only option i mean what they should have done. If there was an issue is just halt the stock right, they should have just said. We at robin hood, have a margin issue. We're gon na raise three billion dollars in 90 minutes from virtue purchase virtue the pep boys and that's that and then we're going to turn it on.

But for the next 90 minutes we're halting trading in the following names. You can't sell. You can't buy right we're calling a truce, we are closing the airport, no one can land, no one can take off. Everyone sit in your seats, okay, and when the airport's, clear, we'll let the planes go and what should have been done.

If i was king, is you shut down the stocks? You say we have a margin issue, we're going to solve the margin issue. Don't worry, all's good, but we can't allow trading in these stocks for 90 minutes once the money clears trading resumed, and that is the market i've seen ever since i've been in it from a runner on an option exchange to running a hedge fund to just being A regular guy right when there was 9 11 and there was panic because of the terrorism. How old are you i'm 27.? Okay? So at 9 11. i was young.

You were barely learning to read: yeah yeah, you're you're, pretty damn impressive for 27. I must say i appreciate that you you get and - and i don't throw around - compliments either. Thank you um. So i've seen hull i've seen the exchanges halted right.

I've seen you know in 9 11. I think they halted the market for a week. They just they just said, no go right, which is the right thing to do so. People wouldn't panic, some money wouldn't move, so everyone could could calm down and think and i've seen them do the same thing in in europe and i've seen them halt individual stocks.

Never ever have i seen this one-sided trading to specifically screw one class of individuals. That is the part that has a guy like me, pissed off. That is a that is the part that has a guy like me willing to drop. What i'm doing, because i just finished off an enemy, so i have a little time on my hands, a bad person.

I finished off. That's what enables me to help these folks, to the extent that i can, but i don't get, let's make this clear, i'm not being paid by anybody. I don't have positions in any of these names. I don't work for anybody.

I was part of a movie that was filmed in portland oregon. Three weeks ago, i paid for my airplane ticket to portland from montana i paid for my hotel in portland i paid for my food in portland. I didn't pay for my beer or whiskey. I drank with those clowns, but i paid for everything.

So no one, no one can accuse me of being paid by anybody or being owned by anybody or running trap for anybody. I'm my own guy. I speak my own mind and if i say it once that's all, i really should need to say some of you guys or some of the people out there keep running this false narrative, which is and i'll say it a million times if i have to, but Don't piss me off too much where i just say you guys are beyond help right. You you.

You know. I've said this, i'm trying for you. I only put myself at risk here, there's nothing for me to gain other than one keeping the system from breaking down. Two keeping people who who work hard for their money from getting screwed three keeping people who work hard for their hard-earned money getting screwed, because that's what really means something to me, because when i was in portland filming this thing, what got me what got my attention Was the horrifically horrible stories of these people getting completely and utterly rat and they were rat by the man and they were rat by citadel and griffin's worth tens of billions of dollars and owns blocks of new york? And - and you know it's just not the way.

One free market should work two, that's not the way you treat people and, finally, i'm a sophisticated of a financially sophisticated stock market. It is not a fair fight me against you. It is just it is just not right, because i will win 99 of the time. If you want to bet against me because it's what i do yeah, but it's not it's not fair right and i'm not interested in not fair, i'm not interested in taking batting practice against a little leaguer.

If i'm a pro baller, i'm interested in taking it against the best and what these guys did, was they completely and utterly screwed this whole class of investors - and i hate it - and i hate these guys folks as much, if not more than you probably more because I know what they've done over the years and and and i'm in and i'm in, to try to help and i'm in to try to move the needle. I can't because sorry right, i i can honestly say that uh when i announced that i would be interviewing you the over. There was a lot of excitement and people have actually shown on this um. I mean i'm here with you like.

I see it in social media there's, obviously always these and people like to troll, but on that, whenever you're, seeing some of this negative rhetoric attacking you, please understand that. There's a lot of people who've proven that there actually seems to be within this group. Some infiltration, in fact, at one point, people were using the profile pictures of people who passed away at that vegas shooting acting as they were apes and like stirring up drama. So as you're going through this - and i get it right there like some of it - is bouncing the fact of your financial knowledge and what you're diving into the other part is the social media.

Please understand some of that. Social media is complete and utter people purposely trying to with this group. Oh i i i get it. I have 12 600 people blocked on twitter.

So so, if anyone knocks on the door and as much looks at me, cross-eyed they're instantly blocked. So so i i i put up with nothing. No, i i get that but the, but the point is - and i think what i've said and the more i think about it, i'm i'm i'm really getting geeked about it is, i think, there's somewhere between a million and two million people in this in this group. If you will there's a there's a lot of folks, potentially up to four million from the amc estimates about millions, that's fine, but let's just let's, just whatever the highest number is cut it in half, okay or cut it in two thirds just so so everyone's credible.

All those people, vote and and elections are close and and house and senate races are close and if people organize - and it's not collusion, it's not collusion for like-minded people to discuss or organize, and i'm not saying peacefully at a park because people end up getting shot. But over the internet and things like that, people get together and organize and push people on this issue. This is going to be a big issue in the next election and it's a popular issue, because no politician is going to want to take the side of citadel against a joe six-pack. No one's going to want to take the side against a 20-50 billionaire billion type of group against guys who who make minimum wage or above or work nights or do whatever or teachers to do it.

It's a horrifically bad political opportunity and all i'd want for you guys and all i'd want going forward. Is the markets are free? The markets are fair, the markets aren't manipulated and never never in your guys lifetime. Will they pull this again and you may be right on amc and you may be right on gme and you may be wrong and if you win you kudos and if you lose it's unfortunate, but at least it's a fair fight. All you ask for is a fair fight and what went down was so bad and should leave such a scar and should piss people off so much that to me, it's a worthy cause.

It's worthy it's worthy of my energy. It's worthy of my time. It's worthy of the fight and even right there, like, obviously millions of people, are resonating with it just because right there, it's um, cheated stolen from lied to it's just all we want, i think, especially on the back of the pandemic and people remembering 2008, and just How the government and wall street interact, people just want a fair shot, they're saying, hey life has been particularly shitty lately. Just give me a fair shot at this thing and i think that's.

The thing is like we just want to play for fair and that's why i think even you, it seems like we're going against the people just give us a fair shot at the most inherent level. It's this david and goliath, but all of a sudden in this david scenario, i get it a lot of people just join the market, but there's power in numbers, i'm seeing the value in community and yeah, maybe in at average it's not the most sophisticated group, but It's been going on for 10 months. People are starting to learn, it's a it's a hive, mind amount of knowledge and it's just getting bigger and bigger and bigger, but one of the main questions right here. If our theory is correct and we're asking for regulation and we're trying to get the ears of some important government political regulating officials, all that, if there truly was that collusion between ken griffin and someone, that said you got to get robin hood in control.

How do we like? How does that get surmounted if it's that powerful and that deep into the state wall street political establishment? How do we uncover that rock and fix it? Well, you know what that is an excellent question. You are on top of your game homes. That is an excellent question. So what i suggest - and this is my opinion - is the second the gang or whatever we want to call the group comes with stuff.

That's not true, not facts. The the party ends they'll they'll, say you know enough right. What you're saying is just factually not true, so you have to focus on two three or four key issues and take all of the conspiracy theorist naked short, all that crap and just leave it at home, because people a will glaze over b, it's unethical as but It's legal and you're not there to change the law. Now we're not here folks to change the law.

We can't change the law, but what you can do is raise five dollars a person and put it in a special bank account and don't do this gofundme or this loosey-goosey and you bring in real lobbyists real lobbyists who know how to talk to warren and sherrod Brown and tester, and to me, and all these people real guys who do this for a living and say look okay. Our group is 4 million. Strong of the 4 million 90 are going to vote in the 2022 elections, so this is going to be a real group. That's going to vote and they're going to vote on this issue.

So if you have a representative in southwestern colorado running for re-election and it's iffy, we'd suggest you get on board, because that guy is going to get organelles going to get their ass knocked out. So i suggest you get on board and it become an issue and it's a popular issue, the regular guy against the billionaire billionaire billionaire billionaires. And what and the good news is all you want all you're asking for. Is that one week of january of what went on that one week, you're not asking you're not asking to dig up lincoln's tomb you're, not asking you know from 1704 you're not asking to find the tahiti fly from the bow of the boat.

You just want the trades which are on record and you want email and you want telephone records and you want to recreate the crime scene to find out what went on and if it's all legit and it's all fine and it's all in order we'll all go Home, sorry for your inconvenience right: we we came checked it out. There was nothing there, we're going home right. Sorry, sorry, sorry to waste your time, but if there's something there right and what happened this week in the washington, 650 000 washington emails catches, the oakland raider coach, talking racist doing his whole and that guy gets fired. He gets fired in one day and he's not even with the redskins so so the question is when, when you dig up, if there's 650 000 emails between the fed, the new york fed citadel robin hood.

However, it went down because it all has to be recorded. You guys want to know and bring this into record. You want to figure out exactly what happened, because collectively you want to form 1 to four million lost billions, billions collectively and ruin lives. So where were you know this? This? This story doesn't go back years right.

We're we're not looking for a class period from 1968 to 1984, we're looking for one week of what went down and we want it focused and we want it specific and and we're not interested in tin, foil theories. We don't care about hypothecating shares or naked. It doesn't matter for what you're trying to do. It's it's the one this again, this is my opinion and i have no skin in the game right.

I'm not. No. No side is putting me up to anything other than me me of me. So if you figure out exactly what went on in that week to force the switch getting flipped, that is where the action is.

That is all that you guys and gals should want to and need to know. That's all that's all it is. So i guess with that, the one thing i would uh on a personal basis, push back a little bit on is i'm very much a fan of using a various microphones that echo our voice to get some sort of political leader on our side to do a Forensic look into what happened, but on top of it, whether it goes our way or doesn't. I also think it's necessary for our group, the ape nation to come with a very concise set of measurable things.

So just for example, like let's say there was three things on the list: no more payment for order flow. We want more orders done on a lit exchange in terms of 13f filings. Why in the world are shorts, not reported blows my mind and let's say, for example to me: we have the technology. Why do we not have instantaneous settlement so beyond it all the other issues that maybe some of the more tinfoil hats are wearing? I feel, like those are a list of very three measurable things, that, on top of a forensic look into january, the community could argue for and right now there are some bills that are currently being discussed.

But you never know if it's going to get out of committee blah blah blah, but i feel like if we can attach it to a political leader and a group, a bipartisan group that could do the forensic look and, let's just say, for example, those three things. I'm sure there could be a bigger list of smaller lists, yada yada yada to me. That seems like a strong way to attack it uh. I think it's a that's a way to attack it in round two okay.

In round two, the sooner the gang can figure out what led to the flip switching. If there was something nefarious, the sooner round two can pass, the sooner people will pay for round two. So i'll give you a conversation, a hypo hypothetical conversation between me and in a democratic, senator's staff, hypothetical right i'll. Just talk to myself.

We talk about these issues and i say: well, you guys have subpoena power. So if it becomes a hot button issue for you guys, you can issue subpoenas and they say we have subpoena power, but it has to be on a bipartisan basis. So let's say senator kahodas is all for it and can go to the democratic leader, sherrod brown and sherrod brown's in on it. No problem right.

The democrats have it bought in, but then toomey who's, the republican leader out of pennsylvania. He may say over my dead body, i'm not doing this. This is a waste of time, it's a waste of effort and unless the democratic leader and the republican leader both agreed to suspicious subpoenas and or discovery, you get nothing, nothing can move forward. So there has to be extraordinary pressure put on too many republicans in his gang to at least get discovery on what happened and i'd suggest a winner take all basis if there's nothing, if there's nothing here, if everything was in order, if it's totally okay for the Ceo of robin hood to get on tv and lie, if that's totally okay, and that, then that's that's the new rule of the road.

But if it's not okay, we we sure, have something to discuss and then after that becomes payment for order flow short reporting, zero settlement and then afterwards, gotcha okay. But but you know you: let's have a murder trial and then, when found guilty we can then work on tax evasion and larceny and think and things like that. But let's see what we have first, because the first battle is going to be mighty. But that's where the money is and that's where the victory is and that's where the independence is for you guys.

That's that's. That's that's you know all these. You know movements. If you will they start at this grassroots level and people don't stop.

But it's focused on on the issue, so i'm 61, i was born in 60.. You know when, when you had all the segregation and stuff going on in the south, you know it started, as you know, voting being able to be in the bus anywhere not sitting at the back of the restaurant being able to go to hotels, stuff like right. Now you'd assume couldn't even be possible. Right couldn't even be like possible.

Now um, i have kids older than you right. I have grandchildren, so so you say yeah, but for me who grew up in that right, you'd say: man have we come a long way, but it wasn't anything that happened fast. So the real segregation movement in this is to figure out what happened that day and the events that led up to flicking that switch. That's what really really matter to us right, yeah, because it matters that we can find who did it and we get made whole.

We can find out who did it and make sure this doesn't happen again, because right now, there's been nothing done to change anything that this can't happen again, and it could happen again and again and again and the next time it happens. I i hope it doesn't. I hope it doesn't happen again that, but it can because nothing's been done to change it, and if you don't change it and you don't fix it, then all hell really breaks loose. So why doesn't everyone want to be on the front of the spear on this? Rather than behind and be you know if, if everyone wants to be part of something great and some of part of something to democratize, the thing be on it in the front rather than after there's an absolute disaster, saying yeah, we should have done what these guys Said yeah we should have done it, but it wasn't a coherent bunch.

You know they were just mumbling all sorts of theories that we viewed as crazy. So if you focus specifically on what the issues are, they can't they can't box you off as doing something crazy. You come off as credible and you may not all have gone to harvard or yale or princeton or done all the stuff that these people have done. But you know right from wrong.

You know right from wrong and what happened to you, even amongst all my hedge fund, buddies every one of them to a man or a woman says what happened was really wrong. No one has the guts like myself to actually stand up and put their name and their and their body of work behind you guys, because it just puts them at great risk. But i don't have a business and i'm not getting paid and i'll give a because i believe in what you guys. I believe that you guys were horrifically badly screwed.

That's what i know and i'll do what i can to try to help, but that, but that's the way it has to get. I mean you start with one gallon of sugar water and you turn it into eight ounces of of syrup right. You you need to boil it down and get everyone in my mind to really focus yeah. I definitely definitely agree and people like myself, i mean like i'm, obviously don't have such a story.

Career as yourself, but like i saw i was like whoa, whoa whoa seems like something crazy went on and then of course like it brings up memories of being awkwardly at the thanksgiving day table in 2008 and hearing my parents and their friends talking about just how Everything was basically so for me, and i know: there's truly are millions of other people out there who are very specifically interested in this fight to hopefully level out the playing field and shed light on what happened and hopefully fix it for ourselves and future generations. I know we're coming up on our time here, so i want to leave you with one question in january and really what's been going on, but related to the stocks, amc, gme and just the debacle in more of a general sense. What is your confidence level that, in some way, shape or form? There was a combination of prime brokers, market makers and potentially government related regulators who completely over defrauded and messed up the entire situation at a lee in a legal, illicit nefarious level? 109, confident that that happened - that's just that's! That is absolutely insane. 109 wow.

109, that if i led the inquiry or i led the commission, i would find wrongdoing of of drastic proportion by somebody. I'm not saying everyone was in on it. I'm not saying everyone was part of crime of the in the casino, but but there was enough there that that caused an unprecedented shift for something. That's never happened, 100, 100.

Without a doubt, and the reason in the reason i say, the hundred and nine percent is how fast this got swept under the rug. They had the circus hearings, which were a complete circus everyone. You know the senator from the great state of arkadelphi arkansas came in and said the markets work everything's great this that and the other everyone wiped their hands of it and that's been it. No one ever hears about it anymore.

It never comes up anymore, everyone's holding their breath for the sec report. I mean, if you hold your breath long enough, you'll die, there's going to be nothing really in that which is going to provide a smoking gun because former sec guys and many of them work at citadel. That's it! You know it it's it's just like the old pals act. I mean i have friends, not no.

I'm not gon na say that. That's not true. I know people who work at the sec. I know people who work at all sorts of stuff and i know how things go and it doesn't have to be as bad as slipping money under the table, but everyone will say yeah.

These people got screwed yeah, they got, but you know we did it for the greater good of the system. If we didn't do this, the whole thing would have blown up, you know and - and it just happens, but it's not right because i've been on the wrong side of plenty of these deals and it's not good and and you don't need a crisis or a blow Up to solve a problem in a situation, you should do it when things are like this, and the markets are high and people are giddy and there's no stress on the system. This is the time to fix it, not not when we have the next one, not one we have not when we have the next one, so that's kind of sort of how i see it. I mean, and i'll do more of these with you.

Whenever you want, we can get in stocks and we get into different things, and you can you know you can do whatever you want. I mean i'm here to try to help yeah. I know personally, i'm more than ready to keep fighting. I know there's millions of other people willing to fight and as this story develops and as we uncover certain stones and rocks and see, what's going on more than happy to bring you back on in the meantime, while we're waiting for those next big drops.

What is the best way to people like hear what you have to say follow you. I know you have a twitter i'll, make sure it's below you in this entire interview, yeah, but is there another, do you have a website or anything like that? I don't. I don't have a website, i don't have instagram, i don't have facebook, i don't have any of these other fancy. Antsy things i'm just at at alderland age.

That's how you get a hold of me on twitter.