You had a bet on how this will end up playing out you just alluded alluded to it taking potentially years. So. Let's say we get to the end that time frame when the dust settles where do you think we're gonna be a couple weeks ago. We were talking about voyager and we heard that they lowered their limit that you could take out uh before that it was 25k per day then they lowered it from 10 and people were like hey.

That's not the best sign. But it's at least not as bad as celsius that they completely locked it up then yesterday. We heard the news that well it was actually july 1st. I believe friday that they said hey no more withdrawals no more deposits no transfers everything's frozen if you have the voyager debit card frozen that's not good and once again that's exactly what celsius did it looked like it went the way of celsius well as of early this morning.

Unfortunately we got some more negative news. You can see this on the official voyager account you could also see it from steven here. The ceo of voyager. But here's the headlines.

Crypto broker voyager digital files for bankruptcy protection. This is not good. No bueno voluntary filings comes after crypto hedge fund. Three aero capital.

Defaulted on a large loan from a voyager unit. You might be thinking. Why does it matter well basically a lot of people give voyager their money and they have all the fancy schmancy ious for all the crypto that they own. But it's like they have the iou to you that it's yours even though they're actually the owner and then they go take that money and they were making what they thought were not risky investments as in investing into three ac.

Three arrows capital. And it turned out that was absurdly risky and they lost all of that money so they basically took people's money and made a very bad bet with it cryptocurrency. Broker. Voyager.

Said. That it has filed for chapter 11. Bankruptcy protection. The company.

Said. It has initiated chapter 11 restructuring in new york. Where it is based and will seek recognition in the case in canada the voluntary filing comes after voyager was caught up in the problems of three. Ac voyagers.

Said it had around 13. Billion of crypto assets on its platform. And more than 350 million in cash held for the benefit of customers at metropolitan commercial bank. Had claims of more than 650 million against 3ac as of june 30th.

The company said it has also more than 110 million of cash and owned crypto assets that would support its operations during the chapter 11 process now yes. There are various forms of bankruptcy. And obviously. That's something that should be looked into and just looking at these numbers 13.

Billion of crypto assets. It's very fair to ask the basic question of what's going on with my personal money the money. I had on voyager where is it what's going on with it is it all mine. Am.

I going to get none of it back am. I going to get a portion of it back and to be completely frank with you as i'm filming this right now. I do not have all of those answers. We have some of the answers.

I'm going to get into the actual filings. Because i think that'll clear up a couple of your questions. And i'm going to be bringing on a person who is a far bigger expert in the world of crypto than i am to directly ask those questions and get some of you some answers. This is the comment from the ceo of voyager.

This comprehensive reorganization is the best way to protect assets on the platform and maximize value for all stakeholders. Including customers voyager's platform was built to empower investors by providing access to crypto assets trading with simplicity speed liquidity and transparency while i strongly believe in this future the prolonged volatility and contagion in the crypto markets over the past few months and the default from 3ac on loan from the company subsidiary voyager digital require us to take deliberate and decisive action now the chapter 11 process provides an efficient and equitable mechanism to maximize recovery. You heard that and right away your detector is going off. You're like what pr team spun that up for you just tell us man are we gonna get our money.

That is completely fair. That's the main question you don't need some overpaid pr from spinning. You fancy schmancy. The question is where's my money am.

I getting it back this is what we know as of now. The proposed plan of reorganization aka. The plan would upon implementation resume account access and return value to the customers. Under this plan.

Which is subject to change given ongoing discussions with other parties and requires court approval customers with crypto in their accounts will receive in exchange. A combination of the crypto in their accounts. Uh proceeds from the three ac recovery. Common shares in the newly organized company and voyager tokens.

The plan contemplates an opportunity for customers to elect the proportion of common equity and crypto. They will receive subject to certain maximum thresholds so basically they're going to say hey here's what you have and now we're willing to offer you some of your crypto. Some of the proceeds from if they get any money back from 3ac common shares in the new company and voyager token. I'm assuming as of now they're going to look at what you have and then through a combination of the other things they'll probably give you like a percentage of it depending on how bad things really are or aren't my gut reaction.

Right now is most people on voyager are going to take a serious haircut. Myself included this is one of the first things i got onto a year ago since then i've moved on to other better ways to store my crypto. But yes. I personally still had crypto with them i'm most likely gonna end up losing six figures on this particular deal.

It's painful and i guess i'm more so articulating all this to understand i'm right there with you this isn't me just covering up news like i commonly do this is saying yeah. It's obviously very important news and then it's personally affecting me. I'm sure the way. It is so many of you customers with usd deposits in their accounts will receive access to those funds.

After a reconciliation and fraud prevention process is completed with metropolitan commercial bank. So if you have a usd deposit. It's going to be treated very very differently than a digital asset. So my first initial reaction to that is just with your usd deposits you're most likely more protected with that than you are with digital.

Assets ie. If you turned your usd into bitcoin ethereum and the list goes on and on and on right now we are gonna switch it over and talk with marty bent. It's gonna be hopefully a much more illuminating conversation of where this can all go. I just wanted to get this in front of all of you the golden question is how bad is it going to get what's going on will i ever get anything back.

And i obviously let's make it clear that right now. This is conjecture it just came out this morning. We know about chapter 11. And i was reading some of the filings and like well we'll try to get you some of your crypto.

Some equity in the new company that'll come from the reconstruction of it and then maybe some voyager coins. Something like that how do you see this going maybe. If you want to give us the good the bad the ugly that type of a scenario. But like if you had a bet on how this will end up playing out you just alluded to it taking potentially years.

So. Let's say we get to the end of that time frame when the dust settles where do you think we're going to be yeah. It really depends on a number of factors. So again going back to mount gox that is one of the most famous blow ups in bitcoin's history.

They've been in bankruptcy proceedings uh in japan since 2014. And it's still up in the air as to when the creditors of mount cox are going to get uh. Any of their money back with mount gox specifically the the fund that is handling the bankruptcy. Actually did some active management.

Uh and traded some bitcoin and they've actually i think um actually made customers some money in us. Dollar terms uh over the course of customers will get paid back i believe in dollars at the end of the day malcox and they may be made whole dollar terms. But not in bitcoin terms back when uh mount gox blew up bitcoin was trading around eleven hundred dollars. And obviously now it's uh 20.

Almost 20 x. That so um your dollars. You'll get all those back. But you're not going to get as many bitcoin as you held on the exchange.

Another example of customers being made whole is bitfenix uh in november of 2016. They got hacked and lost 115 000. Bitcoin um. Around when the price was 600.

They did some token scheme. Where they spun up like a bitfinex token and their customers got access to that and then eventually via that token offering and the company surviving and still providing services profitably was able to make their customers. Whole um. So that's an example of a company actually uh losing a considerable amount of bitcoin and being being able to make all their customers.

Whole even though a lot of their customers wound up selling that token that they spun up at a loss. So really the people were made whole were the speculators who were taking on that token risk um. And so unless you're confident that if voyager does something similar. Unless you're confident in their ability to run a profitable business and um actually attain enough profit to not only make people whole.

But continue to operate successfully into the future uh. They it's probably not going to be as successful as bitfenix um. Because that's the one thing bitfinex was just running like a pure bitcoin exchange. Where the business model is very straightforward and it's relatively de risked.

Where when it comes like a voyager celsius. The as we've described what they're doing on the back end with their customers. Bitcoin is extremely risky and so i think for voyager specifically moving forward. It's going to be really hard to um to maintain a reputation or even get their reputation back um.

And i think people are just going to avoid these type of servers or they're going to be more likely to avoid these types of services moving forward uh as the market becomes more aware of the risk. That exists in the back end. So i'm under the impression that it's going to be very hard for voyager to recover its reputation and therefore you know run a profitable business that would allow them to make their customers full man. I mean i guess.

It's one of those things. That's it's painful to say it's painful to hear uh. But i wholeheartedly believe when it comes to the world of finance and money it's one of those things where try to put your emotion. Aside like you just we need truths like that so you're under the impression that it's not necessarily going to zero.

But a pretty serious haircut will most likely be involved and on top of that the dust nut isn't going to most likely settle for a couple of years and once again this is conjecture you're not saying like legally this is how it has to go. But you're thinking. That's the odds of the situation. Yeah.

Yeah. I'm i'm not. A lawyer. Um.

None of this is investment advice. But just having seen uh these types of blow ups. Throughout bitcoin's history and understanding the nature of voyager's business. And i mean just look at the fact that they issued a 670 million dollar loan to an obscure fund out of singapore with no collateral in the loan.

I mean that that alone should uh should really highlights the incompetence of the voyager management team that like i i do have a background in fund management and putting that much value at risk with no collateral put up by the counterparty is extremely extremely uh uh. That's what i'm looking for irresponsible where it's uh. The due diligence that went into a 670 million dollar transaction seems to have been extremely subpar in this case. Like i mean obviously myself.

I'm sure a lot of people listening right now like it's just painful because you're coming to the reckoning that like maybe all but at least a decent chunk of her money that was invested with this is going to the wayside and it's just frustrating. And i think it's natural you're angry you're upset a lot of people had like a lot of their money in here. And my heart truly goes out to them it it's that it's painful this sucks like i'm right there. If you guys are listening to this and you're like dude.

I'm out money. I'm sitting in that like that train right there with you then it comes to that point of anger of like i don't know is this somehow maybe not fraud. But is this like against a fiduciary responsibility like like i feel like with that money in between and you're saying. It was obscure and like i i guess.

It's a two part question is there somehow a breaking of the law with not following the reduce fiduciary responsibility for not doing the dd and then on top of that the onus on us as the person using voyager was there was this public information that we just didn't want to look into or didn't have enough time to look into it was it out there like should we have been like dude. This is awful like look at what they just did or was this not even public well that's a good question. Because voyager is a publicly traded company. I believe so i would imagine at least their balance sheet income statement.

They'd have to file quarterly. Reports and updates on the state of of their balance sheet. And they may not have to be too specific with issuing a 670 million dollar loan to three hours capital specifically. But you should be able to snes out via the financials that they were um issuing these types of loans.

I would imagine again. I'm not an expert in terms like fiduciary responsibility. I guess that is a bit of a gray area. Considering the regulatory uncertainty that exists in the world bitcoin and the overarching crypto space uh.

It's a bit opaque. There's the cftc thinks they can regulate the sec. Thinks they can regulate the treasury things they can regulate it and so there's this regulatory gray area where there's unfortunately not really any cut and clear rules they would have to apply rules from other sectors of the economy to voyager. I would imagine and again not an expert.

So not exactly sure how that would apply to voyager um. Yeah. At the end of the day. Uh.

Just having seen a bunch of these blow ups don't i i would be highly skeptical that uh anybody from voyager will be going to jail. Where there'll be any fines. I think um it'll just be explained away like hey you know boyd voyager. And its customers took an undue risk.

And i would imagine again going back to the point that any customer a voyager that believes that they have bitcoin at the end of the day if you read the fine print you're defined as an unsecured creditor um. So if you read the fine print. I think that would be able to make them get out of the scot free from a legal perspective. Because in the in the legal print.

It's like hey if you read the terms of service. You would understand that your unsecured creditor that has the risk of losing his or her money.